SOLUTION: What is the number of different five-digit numbers that can be formed from the set S={2,3,4,5,6} such that one digit is repeated twice and another digit is repeated twice

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Question 1208272: What is the number of different five-digit numbers that can be formed from the set S={2,3,4,5,6} such that one digit is repeated twice and another digit is repeated twice
Found 6 solutions by ikleyn, Edwin McCravy, mccravyedwin, greenestamps, AnlytcPhil, Plocharczyk:
Answer by ikleyn(52781) About Me  (Show Source):
You can put this solution on YOUR website!
.
What is the number of different five-digit numbers that can be formed
from the set S={2,3,4,5,6} such that one digit is repeated twice and another digit is repeated twice
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

           Solve step by step



(a)  Let's consider more simple problem first:

         Given three different symbols A, B and C as an alphabet, 
         how many different 5-symbol words can be formed
         such that symbol A is used twice, symbol B is used twice 
         and symbol C is used once?


         For this problem, we can select a position for A in  C%5B5%5D%5E2 = 10 ways;
                                         a position for B in  C%5B3%5D%5E2 = 3 ways;
                                         then C occupies the remaining 5th position, at no choice.

         So, for this problems, there are 10*3 = 30 different words.



(b)  Now, returning to the given problem, we can assign any of 5 possible digit to A;
                                                        any of remaining 4 digits to B,
                                                    and any of remaining 3 digits to C.
  

     It gives 5*4*3 = 60 different choices for assigning; but for us, the pairs (A,B) and (B,A)
     are mutually-interchangeable : they lead to the same numbers.


     Therefore, this number 60 we should divide by 2 and take 60/2 = 30.



(c)  Now the final answer to the problem is  30 from (a) multiplied by 30 from (b)

     giving the  ANSWER  30 * 30 = 900.

Solved.

------------------------

The solution and the final answer by  Edwin are  INCORRECT,  since he considers / includes the pattern
XXYYY with three repeating digits,  which is  PROHIBITED  in this problem.

Saying that  " When a digit is repeated three times,  it is repeated two times ",
Edwin applies  " logic imitation " to confuse you and to foist you that  " 2 = 3 ",
which is a dangerous  (if not a fatal)  delusion.

To ensure in it,  give  2  dollars to  Edwin and request  3  dollars back from him.

If he will protest,  refer to his statement and say him that returning  3  dollars,  he returns  2.


=======================


In the next his post,  Edwin  (as @mccravyedwin)  makes self-justification for himself,
but it is,  obviously,  very crooked  (toooo crooked)  to be truth or to be accepted seriously.

It is only good to make you smile in response.

Edwin, we all make mistakes from time to time.
Why do not you accept that you made a mistake ?


///////////////////////


An artificial Intelligence gives the same answer as mine (900 ways)

https://www.google.com/search?q=What+is+the+number+of+different+five-digit+numbers+that+can+be+formed+from+the+set+S%3D%7B2%2C3%2C4%2C5%2C6%7D+such+that+one+digit+is+repeated+twice+and+another+digit+is+repeated+twice&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS1071US1071&oq=What+is+the+number+of+different+five-digit+numbers+that+can+be+formed+from+the+set+S%3D%7B2%2C3%2C4%2C5%2C6%7D+such+that+one+digit+is+repeated+twice+and+another+digit+is+repeated+twice&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTI5NzJqMGoxNagCCLACAQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

but with much less detailed explanations; so, you will not learn much from it.


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


The other tutor expresses his doubts about clarity of wording.

To me, wording in this problem is PERFECT, as clear as the sun in sunny day,
transparent as glass and does not allow any other/(any different) interpretation.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/


Regarding Edwin's (@AnlytcPhil) arguments about the meaning of words "repeating twice",
I do not think that the meaning is regulated by logic - it is regulated
by commonly accepted rules of using words in specific area, by the context and by common sense.

For example, when a teacher says to a student "repeat it twice",
it clearly means that the teacher expects and the student should to pronounce
or to do something TWICE - not thrice.

Another example: when somebody says "I will not repeat it twice", it means
that the person, who said it, is going to pronounce his instruction only
once - not three times.

So, I do not think that here the wording usage is determined by logic - it is determined
by commonly accepted rules of using words in specific area, by the context and by the common sense.

Logic is IRRELEVANT here, especially logic, constructed artificially "ad hoc", not naturally.


        Your argument, Edwin, in the last your post are pure speculation,
        logic is a kind of imitation and there is no the power of persuasion.


In general, further discussion of this issue becomes uninteresting,
pointless and unproductive. It's like beating water in a mortar.


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        Dear colleagues Edwin and @greenestamps


Specially for our discussion, I performed a GOOGLE search.

My key words were "digit repeating twice", and I selected only those GOOGLE outputs
that are/were relevant to our issue: what this wording means in Math ?

Please look into these 5 (five) sources/links below.

https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3350036/probability-that-exactly-two-digits-repeat-twice-in-a-6-digit-number

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfm6YPXBULE

https://www.doubtnut.com/qna/648103004
        notice their language: how they say
        "repeat digit twice" in their solution part 3 and how they interpret it.

https://infinitylearn.com/question-answer/the-total-number-of-three-digit-numbers-with-one-d-62cb5fabe06011cf7ead4d96

https://tardigrade.in/question/the-total-number-of-three-digit-numbers-with-one-digit-repeated-juypkept



In all these five source, the treatment of this passage "digit repeating twice" is the same as "digit appearing twice".


From it, I make a conclusion for myself that in Math
"digit repeating twice" is the same as "digit appearing twice".


I know that around philologists in US 50 years ago was popular a prank "what does it means: two times appearing
or 3 times appearing", and they exercised and were drawn out quasi-logical proofs in both directions.

For philologists, it is normal. But mathematicians were NEVER engaged in such nonsense.
For them, "repeating twice" always is the same as "appearing twice" -
- it is a NORM of a mathematical language.

This norm does exist in Math just hundreds of years, is commonly accepted everywhere in Math
and by everybody in Math and is used without any discussions about its meaning.
It was obvious and clear to me from the very beginning, since I know the norms of the mathematical language.

Also, it is so in all quantitative sciences: Physics, Mechanics, Chemistry, Astronomy.
In other areas, including philology or everyday life, it can be different,
but again, the meaning by 60% or 80% or 90% or 99% depends on context - not on imitative logic.


        So from this discussion, please draw a conclusion for yourself
        that you did not know the correct usage and correct norm of usage
        of these words in Math until I explained it to you here today.


Why it was obvious and clear to me from the very beginning - because during my study at University,
during my work on my PhD and during the years of my professional work I read thousands articles
and hundreds of books in English on Mathematics and on all kinds of Mechanics - so I know well this terminology.


From your side, it would be good and right to make two things:

    (1)   To say "thanks" to me for my teaching, and

    (2)   To remove all and any invectives to my side in your posts.

I sincerely expect that you will do it without delay and without reminders.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


All nations on Earth have fairy tales for children, and many of these tales
require the spell "door, open (!)" to be repeated three times.

How many times do you think the spell should be pronounced? Three times or four?
So, from childhood, children begin to understand what it means to repeat three times.

But you, under the influence of an old stupid philological prank, which happened
50 years ago, still believe that the spell should be said four times.
Well, the magic door will never open for you - until you change your beliefs from wrong to right.

                                                                                        Sept. 20, 2024.



Answer by Edwin McCravy(20055) About Me  (Show Source):
You can put this solution on YOUR website!

When a digit is repeated three times, it is repeated two times. 

They are either the arrangements of XXYYZ or of XXYYY, where different
letters represent different digits.

Case 1.  The arrangements of XXYYZ.
Choose the X 5 ways.
Choose the Y 4 ways.
Choose the Z 3 ways.
That's (5)(4)(3)=60 ways.

We divide by two because, for instance, XXYYZ could be chosen respectively, as
33556 or 55336, which are the same.

So that's 30 ways. to select the three digits.

They may be ordered in 5%21%2F%282%212%21%29%22%22=%22%2230 distinguishable ways.

That's (30)(30) = 900 ways

Case 2: The arrangements of XXYYY

Choose the digit for X in 5 ways.
Choose the digit for Y in 4 ways.
 
So that's (5)(4) = 20 ways.

Each may be permuted in 5%21%2F%282%213%21%29%22%22=%22%2210 distinguishable ways.

That's (20)(10) = 200

For both cases, that's 900+200 = 1100.

Edwin

Answer by mccravyedwin(407) About Me  (Show Source):
You can put this solution on YOUR website!

Sorry, but if you do something three times, you've done it twice.

If 6 digit numbers had been asked for, 333555 would have been acceptable.

Edwin

Answer by greenestamps(13200) About Me  (Show Source):
You can put this solution on YOUR website!


The language used in the statement of the problem could definitely be better.

On the surface, it sounds as if one of the digits is used twice and another of the digits is also used twice.

But the wording says each of two different digits is "repeated twice". Does that mean it is used THREE times? (used, then repeated, then repeated a second time = used three times)

Assuming that the intended meaning is that each of two of the digits is used twice and a different digit is used once....

(1) Choose the two digits to be used twice each in C(5,2) = 10 ways.
(2) Choose the digit to be used once in C(3,1) = 3 ways.
(3) Arrange the digits XXYYZ in (5!/((2!)(2!)) = 30 ways.

ANSWER: 10*3*30 = 900

-------------------------------------------------------------

The almighty has spoken....

tutor @ikleyn, who speaks perfect English (as evidenced by some of the things she writes in her posts!) has pronounced that "repeated twice" means the same thing as "used twice". So all of us lesser beings must accept that.

Balderdash....!

If you do something and then repeat it, you have done it twice. If you repeat it again, then you have done it three times.

So, with the problem as stated, each of two of the digits is used three times, which means the number must be at least 6 digits. So, as tutor @Edwin says, the answer to the problem as stated is 0.

If that was the intended meaning of the problem, then it is not a very interesting problem, or a good problem for a student to practice math on.

So, instead of writing a lengthy response claiming that other tutors' responses are WRONG, I chose in my response to point out that one interpretation of the problem made the problem absurd, and to therefore assume that the intended meaning was that each of two of the digits is USED twice and another digit is used once.


Answer by AnlytcPhil(1806) About Me  (Show Source):
You can put this solution on YOUR website!
All the answers above, including mine, are wrong.

"To repeat" means "to do it a second time".

If a digit is repeated, then it is used TWICE.

If a digit is repeated TWICE, then it is used THREE TIMES.

The problem states: 

"one digit is repeated twice and another digit is repeated twice"

This requires a number with at least six digits.

Since the question asks "What is the number of five-digit numbers...",

the answer is clearly 0.
Solved.
Edwin

Answer by Plocharczyk(17) About Me  (Show Source):
You can put this solution on YOUR website!
For Ikleyn's information concerning the definition of the word "repeat",
here is the definition, copied and pasted below from an online dictionary:

repeat                                   <--the word under discussion
verb [ T ]                               <--the part of speech (verb transitive) 
/rɪˈpit/                                 <--the pronunciation
to say, tell, or do something again:     <--the definition
She repeated the question.               <--an example of usage   
Listen to the tape and repeat each word. <--another example of usage

Ikleyn makes the mistake of thinking that "to repeat TWICE" means the same
thing as "to repeat ONCE". 

Edwin